anvils / last night's spn

[fannishliss]

hi friends!
please engage with me on the subject of anvils.

I thought last night's ep was very sad with Ed going off the rails and totally faking a monster with a raft of dead as consequences.

For my part, I sympathized with Ed creating the Thin Man, but it was pretty gruesome of him to continue to capitalize on it after the girl was killed.

Also, I very much sympathize with Harry.  Ed created Thin Man because, at the core, he didn't have faith in their friendship without Ghostfacers tying them together.  Creating Thin Man was making Harry a chump because Ghostfacers was always about finding the real ghosts and facing them -- but Ed made it all up, a totally fake monster, yet still encouraged Harry to "face" it -- completely undermining what Ghostfacers stood for.

More horribly, now Harry has killed a man to save Ed's life, and he can never not pull that trigger.  So the Thin Man myth created by Ed and perpetuated by Ed and Harry and their bogus book results in five people dead: girl, sheriff, boss, and both psychos.

okay, so, anvils:
Does the Ed and Harry situation really parallel the Sam and Dean situation?

To me, no. Of course there is the obvious parallel of the estrangement and the unforgivable betrayal.  But narratively, to me, the comparison works to show Sam that Dean's betrayal is actually far more understandable than Ed's.

Watching, I think Jared did a great job trying to show Sam being kind to Harry, and also, clearly that Sam as a character is aware of the anvil he is dodging.

To me the parallel and what it was telling Sam (as I watched) was this:  Gosh, Ed really screwed up.  This was a stupid thing he did, lying to Harry because he just wanted to keep Ghostfacers going.  Harry will need to decide if he can forgive.  It kind of puts what Dean did in perspective, doesn't it.    Was it just me, or did anyone else see Sam think this?
(I realize I'm in the minority of viewers who watch Sam not for what he says but for what he is thinking. Jared to me is amazing at acting without words so that we can see his motivations.  Kudos, Jared!!)

What I'm getting at is this: narratively, the Ghostfacers are silly.  Their job as Supernaturalists is self-aggrandizing, thrill-seeking, and shallow.  They are not out there like Hunters trying to save lives.  And actually, what they do is pretty gruesome, capitalizing on tragic deaths.  But Sam and Dean not only have to try and save lives, they are fighting a war every day, a war that puts them in the (psychologically damaging) position of making life and death calls-- let a psycho live? or deflect the blade so that he dies on it.  Exorcise a demon, that might come back?  Or kill the host, destroying the demon.  Let your brother go to his Heavenly reward?  Or ally with an Angel in hopes that everything will work out.  Always, ALWAYS, they are between a rock and a hard place, and they have to make the unclean/heroic choice, which is why I love this show more than any show in the history of ever.

This episode, as a narrative, was pretty cool in this way: it didn't force the viewer to judge Dean.  Instead, the ep had Sam ask the question, was what he did unforgivable?  In my opinion, we see Sam asking this question of himself.

We saw Sam remember the past with Dean as good times (to me that was a little forced, and Dean knew it, but he's not above using a cheap tactic if it might win Sam back) and we saw Sam hit hard by Harry's image of only one rocking chair in the end.  ;_:  And, we saw Sam terrified for Dean's safety.  (Me too!  I was convinced they were going to kill Dean right there, and Sam was going to have to bring him back, because, impervious veil!!!).  So, to me, it looks like Sam might be reconsidering if he should forgive?

In a way, I think forgiveness is not what's called for right now. What's really called for is better communication and deeper understanding.   The way Dean puts Sam's life first above everything is a real issue they need to work though, it can't just be forgiven and swept under the rug -- something has to change, either in Dean's way of putting Sam on a pedestal, or in Sam's way of understanding Dean's priorities.

So, for me, it was an effective use of anvils. The parallel was obvious, but it becomes less of a parallel the more you dig into it, which is why it works.  Right?

Comments

[borgmama1of5.livejournal.com]

I agree, it looks like a parallel at first, but when you look at the motivations they don't quite line up.

Ed didn't want Harry to go live a normal life.
Dean wanted Sam to live.

Both of them want the other person to stay because they don't want to lose them, but Ed took away Harry's choices. Dean took away Sam's choice to die but not his options of how to live.

Man, I hope this gets resolved soon...and in a satisfying way!!!

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

I don't even know what ep number we are on... but I was really afraid Dean was going to get killed. O_O

So many times in this series we have been told that What's Dead should Stay Dead. And Sam is trying to really take the hard line on it, because he doesn't want his life to outweigh everything else in Dean's balance.

Losing Dean at the end of s7 wasn't the same, because Sam was out of options. With the souls not getting through the veil right now, Sam would kind of be forced to not burn Dean's body, because he'd essentially be condemning Dean to become a vengeful spirit. (We all have our fingers crossed that Kevin will be okay because Mrs. Tran will somehow take super good care of him. All mothers are wishing Linda Tran the best of luck!) He would *have* to bring Dean back.

Then again, if the mark of Cain functions according to the lore (Genesis ch. 4), it might keep Dean alive, even if he were mortally wounded.

Hope Dean listened too

[lakitha tolbert (from livejournal.com)]

I agree. The parallels don't exactly line up and I don't think that what happened between Ed and Harry is what will happen between Dean and Sam. Other than the convos the Ghostfacers had echoing convos the brothers have had, its not the same thing but you could see Sam and Dean listening.

Im not sure I like the constant message that Sam is recieving that he should just forgive Dean, but my consolation to that is that Dean is also recieving the message that he should say something to Sam about what he did and why it was wrong.

Sam is ready to forgive him and they want to be close like before. I think Dean's not understanding what Sam wants him to apologise for, maybe. Or at least that's the impression I get.

Neverthe less, I really liked this episode despite wanting to smack the Ghostfacers most of the time.I can see that this distance between them is hurting them both and that will spur them to fix it. (Maybe that's Sam tactic all along in hanging with Dean so much.)

I too got really caught up in the narrative so much that I really thought Dean was going to Dean. It wouldn't be the first time the show surprised me in such a manner, either. I too paid close attention to sam's reaction during that scene and I hope Dean did too, and Harry's story about the one rocking chair as well.

Re: Hope Dean listened too

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

Dean has already shown that he doesn't understand why he should apologize. Hopefully this episode will begin to make him understand, but it is COMPLICATED as a mixture of trust, self-determination, and acceptable/unacceptable casualties.

I think that Sam is beginning to question staying the course. For example last week, after Kevin asked them to work it out, when Sam gruffly lied and then walked away from Dean-- he paused a moment before going into his room. And then this week, it surprised him that Dean would think he didn't want to Hunt together.

Imho, Sam is trying to play down that they are brothers because he feels that Dean uses the idea of family and being brothers to justify putting Sam first before everything, and Sam really doesn't want others/the world to be sacrificed for him. I can totally understand that. At the same time, I think Sam would love to forgive Dean, but he can't until Dean understands.

Unfortunately, what we don't see is the brothers getting on the same page. Dean thinks Sam is primarily upset about the Angel possession or letting Sam die -- a lot of fans seem to think this as well -- but I think Sam's real issue is much bigger and yet I don't think he's been able to express it very well. In his head, talking to Death, Sam said, can you guarantee that if I die I won't come back -- *no more deals*. Sam desperately wants to stop the cycle of sacrifice, but Dean is still at the place where he'd do it all again.

Still, I think there was a little progress in that both brothers clearly WANT to get back to being brothers. So there is that. :)

Re: Hope Dean listened too

[jensenrick.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with you, especially *not* liking the constant barrage to have Sam just give in, thus giving up his autonomy. I am SO glad that Sam is standing strong in the face of so much family pressure, a big part of what makes him a hero to me.

I also think Sam is ready to forgive, but he can't while Dean is still in "I'm right, I'd do it again," mode.
Because for Sam (or anyone) it's not so much that it's unforgivable, its' unREPEATable. Can not happen again!

[felicia-angel.livejournal.com]

I agree that the parallels started to change the more you dug into it, but I think also that Sam is starting to forgive Dean in his own way, or at least try to find the middle ground, but his main concern is how he's going to deal with Dean after. I don't think the show is moving towards Dean dying so much as taking on traits of the Mark and having his own dark-side storyline - something that I am totally and completely rooting for because reasons. He's becoming darker and either the Mark is affecting his chance to be with Sam in a familial way (I doubt because they've had fights like this before and been just as stubborn) or it's making him more like Cain - immortal, the perfect killer, and an entity that can create high-powered demons.

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think Dean taking on the Mark of Cain is fascinating. Never was there less of a "brother killer" -- except that he did kill Benny, one more of Dean's sacrifices on Sam's behalf.

After we learn more of what the Mark will do it will be fascinating to see how it played out in ways we might not have understood.

It seems to have stopped Dean from sleeping, for one....

As for making demons we'll have to see! How will Dean stomach such a thing? Having undergone the process of being made into a demon himself, I can't see him willingly making a demon. Also, it is the exact opposite of what they were trying to do last year, close hell and heal demons.

Personally I have always hoped that Sammy will be the Demon Messiah and save all demons, but I like Dean to play his part in that role as well. :D

[felicia-angel.livejournal.com]

Sammy being the Demon Messiah would've been awesome, especially in Season 3 or 4 (even up to 5). I'm just...idk, I noticed that everyone but Dean seems to have a 'turn evil' story arch (Sam got Season 4, Cas got Season 6) while Dean is left to pick up the pieces or forgive. I want him to go off and be evil and blame them both for stuff just so I can see them dealing with half the shit they put Dean through sometimes (well, Sam mostly, but family always hits close to home). and also Cain never mentioned about how long Dean would have the Mark, or if it would fade with his death or not. So it'd be fun to see that and how it changes things.
plus I and possibly others have noticed a very odd pattern with Dean - if he's hurt/hurting and a loved one is possessed, most of the time he can reach them. He does it with John in Season 1, with Sam and Bobby in Season 5, and with Cas in Season 8, so I'd like for that to be more than just something odd he can do with family. and again, I want an evil Dean, just to mess with Sam & everyone.

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

They have hinted a couple of times at Dean's dark side:

#1 when in S3 he had visions of what he might become as a demon

#2 when he came back and had to admit he'd been a torturer and that he liked it. And now, he pretty much tortures at will, which I find very disturbing. The Mark could enhance that -- he has been pretty ready to kill recently.

#3 when he came back from Purgatory very triggery and ready to kill. They kind of backed off from that quicker than I expected. ...

#4, and of course, there is 2014!Dean, and seeing how it is actually 2014 now..... :D

[felicia-angel.livejournal.com]

That's true...but I still wanna see more of it. Because a lot of it seemed to be connected to the stuff he buried or what he was forced to do - what he was worried about and hated about himself in S3, being tortured and offered the chance to torture (which mirrors the abused/abuser cycle that Dean attempts to stay away from), and coming back from Purgatory, which seemed to be more a warzone and Dean dealing with a form of PTSD, as opposed to 2014!Dean who was just tired and suicidal. I dunno, I want like him to be how Chibiusa was when she turned into Black Lady. Not so much the demonic side but more then "screw you all, let it burn" side and have it for more than an episode or two.

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

I do not know this Chibiusa of whom you speak. :P

It's part of my head canon, and I consider it to be show canon as well, but most people seem not to see it, that Dean did in fact become a demon in Hell. So the mark of Cain could bring that out in him. It would be surprising to get Demon!Dean all of a sudden, like five-six seasons later!!

I guess in some way the Mark could "Activate" Dean... or, in another way, it could free him up from regrets.... that's one thing about Cain in the mythology, he is more worried about repercussions than regrets. Whereas Dean is normally a huge bundle of regrets. Some folks find Dean awfully angsty, and losing his sense of regret would be a change.

[felicia-angel.livejournal.com]

Either way, it would still be fun.
and really (about the Chibiusa thing)? She's from Sailor Moon, annoying pink-haired kid who turned into a baddie?

[thursdaysisters.livejournal.com]

True, but the parallels lost their effectiveness after the twentieth attempt (and sluggish camera editing to be honest).

Personally I'm going to cover my ears and substitute last night's Ghostfacers with Ben Edlund's Scooby Doo parody.

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

oh I'm a huge Venture Fan. It is like the Tick on acid. Christopher McCullough wrote a lot of Tick episodes for the cartoon you know. :)


I know Anvils irritate a lot of folks; I wondered if the differences went deeper than the surface parallels, and if that pulls the anvils back from the brink??


eta... holy crap I never caught that Sword of Michael reference before!!! poor Sonny!!!

[thursdaysisters.livejournal.com]

The tiny conspiracy theorist in the back of my head heard that line and went "Edlund knew about the Archangel Vessels ALL ALONG"

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

Bizarre! Viva los Muertos aired in Oct. 2006!!! I think that means that Edlund probably wrote it before he even came on with Supernatural, knowing how long it takes Venture eps to be made.
Dean was first identified with Michael in Houses of the Holy (2.13, spring 2007).

Plans within plans!!! :D

I also did not realize that the Groovy Gang on Venture were all partially based on killers -- tho I did get Patty as Patty Hearst, Sonny is Son of Sam who really did claim his neighbor's dog was giving him demonic instructions. O_O Ted is Ted Bundy, and Val is Valerie Solanas. Wo. Such a disturbing ep!!!

[thursdaysisters.livejournal.com]

'Scuse me, just gonna twist myself in knots and hope JJ Abrams taps Edlund to work on Star Wars.

[tabaqui]

I have to agree. There was a little paralleling of their stories, but not *really*, and it felt like it made Sam and Dean's issues ...cheap? I dunno.

Don't get me wrong, i loved the episode, and i still love Show. And it really, really sucks that Ed's unthinking actions forced Harry to kill a human, something that has devastated him.

But as borgmama1of5 said - Ed took away Harry's *choices* - ones he was really happy about. Dean kept Sam from dying, but nothing is keeping Sam from leaving the bunker, the hunting life, *Dean*, but himself.

I feel badly for all of them, but I keep thinking back to the first episode, and Dean telling Sam he had a way to save him, trust him, please. And Sam *did*. It was fucked up and not what Sam would have ever chosen, but he *did not hesitate* to trust Dean and to live.

So the whole 'i wanted to be dead' thing seems to me more like a cover over what the issues *really* are, which are trust and agency and sacrifice.

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

I guess I had the opposite reaction of the ep making Sam and Dean's issues feel cheap. I can see, I think, why people dislike "anvils," but in this case I felt the differences between the superficially parallel situation made both Sam and Dean feel uncomfortable about their estrangement. At the beginning of the ep, they have both reached the stage of being kind of complacent about being pissed at each other. But by the end, they are both alarmed at how their estrangement might play out. They have a renewed sense of what's at stake in their lives. So that's why it worked for me.

I do think that the issues of trust, agency and especially sacrifice still need to be worked through. These are all deep problems in their relationship and they'll never really be able to move forward until they sort it all out.

[jensenrick.livejournal.com]

"At the beginning of the ep, they have both reached the stage of being kind of complacent about being pissed at each other. But by the end, they are both alarmed at how their estrangement might play out. They have a renewed sense of what's at stake in their lives. So that's why it worked for me. "

You put it so brilliantly! That's exactly why I LOVED this episode. One of the best of the season IMO

[tifaching.livejournal.com]

I thought, at the very end, that Sam wasn't any happier with the idea of that one rocking chair porch than Dean was. That what never forgiving Dean would lead to wasn't something he'd considered to that degree. I liked the episode and, anvils aside, it gave me a little hope. :)

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

That's what it did for me too. And to me, the parallels in their situation I think woke Sam up to how much harder Dean's choices were than Ed's, and how Dean's "betrayal" is really pretty different. So I think it did build more understanding. I hope!

[dreamsofspike.livejournal.com]

Effective use of anvils - very nicely put. :) I agree, I overall really liked it and thought the parallels were just enough, a perfect parallel would have been boring :P

But I hope we're not going to have Sam take off and leave Dean now, hope that bit wasn't foreshadowing :(