SPN Meta on Demons, Binaries, Grace

[fannishliss]

Kalliel brings up a great point in her meta: that Supernatural has been destabilizing the human/monster binary since day one.
This is so true!  I'm not sure I can add to her essay, but I guess I'd like to try to get my own heart out there as well.

No spoilers beyond 10.02 please!

Over the years watching Supernatural we've slowly learned that sometimes monsters aren't really monsters, that sometimes humans are the worst.  We see that Angels are rigid and full of cruelty and despair (but not all of them). We see that demons run the gamut from brutal to playful, they have the capacity for devotion and for love and for self-interested betrayal. We tried to understand Free Will.

But now we have Dean to worry about.

I have to admit, my first impulse is to deny that Dean is all demon.   If Crowley wants him to choose a side, doesn't that imply that he has a choice?  Doesn't that make him another class of thing altogether? Maybe, I'd like to think, a Knight of Hell is something other than a run of the mill demon?

As Kalliel points out, no -- that's not it.

I also bear the headcanon that this is not the first time Dean has been a demon.  Of COURSE he was a demon when he got off the rack.  He tortured souls in hell, and he enjoyed it.  Then Castiel, with the power of Heaven behind him, stole that tattered soul back from Perdition and helped him back into his humanity.

But now Dean has black eyes!  And he's really mean!  So maybe he IS a demon? But they can cure him now?

I think Show started at least when they introduced Casey the Bartender with the idea that demons are people, just like us.  They fall, they get tortured, they get angry, they want revenge, they bear the gamut of human emotions.

Crowley said, "he's a demon, I'm a demon -- you were a demon -- we've all been demons"  but he also said "choose a side."   I still think the Blade is a cursed object and I still think the Mark goes to Dean's soul and binds him in such a way that makes him crave the blade and embrace his demonic thirst for blood in a way slightly different to other demons.  Dean may in fact be different in kind to other demons.

But what's important is that because we love Dean, we want to forgive him.  We may not have loved Meg, or Ruby, or Crowley (tho I certainly did and do), but we love Dean and we yearn for his redemption.  We want peace for him when he is done. If there were ever a demon Sam would confess everything for, a demon he would give every drop of blood in that righteous body to save -- it is Dean.

But if Demons can be saved -- if Dean can be saved -- what this means is that Demon is no longer an absolute category. But it also means --  it never has been.  Demons have ALWAYS been capable of finding redemption.  When Ruby (and Lilith) died as martyrs to a cause they absolutely believed in, not everyone could see that as redemption -- but when Meg died while the Boys got away, didn't that look like redemption? Was it any different?

I kind of like the Cas and Hannah show.  I admit, I enjoy watching an Angel figure out what's of value in human existence, primarily because I want to watch her try it on for size.  I super hate Metatron and his weasely face, and I'm really glad Cas was there to stop Hannah before she made an awful mistake (like poor, deceived Gadreel).  I want to get inside Hannah's head and I fully plan to fic on her very soon.  :) The compelling theme around Hannah, for me, is mutability.  Angels can learn, they can change. Actually demons can learn and change too. Back in my career as a Romanticist, I would have been pointing to William Godwin's ideas about Political Justice -- that the concept of punishment is inherently unethical and also practically useless, and therefore that the only good/ethical response toward bad behavior (crime, evil) is education towards change.  (Godwin is known as the father of political anarchy and more famously as the father of Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley, and was one of the earliest Progressives.)  Demons are the recipients of the worst possible punishment -- an eternity spent suffering in Hell, capped by the eradication of who they essentially are.  Dean is right there, right now.  He is lolling about, drinking and stabbing and sexing his way through his Hell.  As Mephistophilis would say,
"Why this is hell, nor am I out of it.
Think'st thou that I, who saw the face of God, [read, puppy eyes of my brother]
And tasted the eternal joys of heaven,
Am not tormented with ten thousand hells
In being deprived of everlasting bliss?"

Dean can't bear the possibility that he might tear Sam's throat out with his teeth, and he knows that the Blade can and will drive him crazy with wanting the violence.  So he tries to drive Sam as far away as possible.  Even abandoning Sam to his death at the hands of someone else -- Dean would still prefer that to killing Sam himself.

Show is asking us this: Dean is your hero, your unerring moral compass -- so why is he swinging wildly? Is being a demon something that happened to him? something that he is? something inescapable at the core?  or something he could somehow overcome?

Is being a demon (a monster, an Angel) something ANYONE could somehow overcome?

If Dean is NEVER cured -- can't he somehow fight his way back to still being Dean? and if so -- what is a demon? 

Joining Team Free Will looks like an existential choice -- choosing not to be ruled by what appears to be destiny.

BUT there is an element of theology here that goes beyond existentialist thought --  located in Sam -- it's the LOVE that Sam bears toward Dean, the unconditional love that insists that Sam will do whatever it takes to bring back his brother.  In theology, the LOVE that brings us back, unearned, unmerited, to righteousness, is called Grace.  hm.  Cas needs some of that.  Hannah, getting a clue? (if they do that right I will PLOTZ.)

okay, that's all I got for now.

Comments

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

The only part of this I'd disagree with or question is this "Dean can't bear the possibility that he might tear Sam's throat out with his teeth, and he knows that the Blade can and will drive him crazy with wanting the violence. So he tries to drive Sam as far away as possible. Even abandoning Sam to his death at the hands of someone else -- Dean would still prefer that to killing Sam himself."

i actually think Dean has no special feelings for Sam right now, at all. i don't think he cares about anyone, or anything other than where it relates to himself. Hence he was going to leave Cole to slit Sam's throat, and then take pleasure in killing Cole for being (effectively) disrespectful to Dean by daring to kill Dean's brother. This Dean has no compassion, no compunction so I'm not sure he wouldn't hurt Sam, or even kill Sam right now. And that is kind of awesome, not knowing how far this Dean would go.

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

there are two pieces of evidence that Dean is still looking out for Sam -- first the note, which he didn't have to leave; second the way he immediately left the Black Spur as soon as he realized Sam might find him. If he didn't care at all, I don't see what his motivation would be for actively avoiding Sam.

well, okay, I have to admit, Sam did take him down awfully fast after catching up with him... so maybe he just didn't want the bother?? I prefer my first idea, but there is that. :P

What's going on in Dean's head looks very complicated. On the one hand he's definitely enjoying twisting the knife, both literally and verbally. We can certainly see that and it is uncomfortable. Like when he goes to kill the wife, and ends up killing the husband. He sees very clearly into the guy's motives... it's not necessarily that he prefers to kill one or the other, but he enjoys killing the dude as soon as he finds out he is guilty. And clearly, he is furious that the First Blade has been taken from him... shivers!!

But if he cared to hurt Sam, he could easily have done so during their confrontation -- but instead explicitly denied himself the pleasure. There's a motive there!! :)

I guess what I'm saying is only that the shades of gray are way stronger than either black or white. Certainly Dean is not running from Sam ONLY because he loves Sam.... but that doesn't mean he isn't ALSO trying not to kill Sam from whatever motive remains inside him, family or love or whatever that thing is. :)

thanks for playing! :D

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

I agree, there is some restraint there, but I'm not sure what it is exactly and whether this will get eroded away the longer he goes without the blade (or with the blade??)

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

right??? taking the blade away before taking away the mark doesn't seem like a perfect plan???

Ideally you'd need to do everything at once -- remove blade, remove mark, and cure Dean -- but Sam's an exorcist, not a magician! :)

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

I think Dean has deliberately chosen not to kill Sam - after all, he did tell him that it was taking everything he had not to rip out his throat. (With his teeth. Excuse me. I think I need to watch that scene again.) He's got to have some reason for going to the trouble of not killing Sam.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

True.....mmm I need to watch the whole episode again. Purely for research, you understand.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

This show does require a lot of research, doesn't it? It's exhausting.

[manzanita-crow.livejournal.com]

I've never seen Dean as 'an unerring moral compass'. I've always seen him as making morally dubious choices (just like Sam and everyone else). I'm just curious as why people think he's so righteous. Can anyone shed light on this for me please?

Seriously, not looking for a fight, I just really want to know.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

I think maybe he used to be - and i guess there was all that thing about him being the righteous man. But he's made many errors of judgement, even before he went to hell. Remember him saying really early on how he recognised he made questionable decisions when it came to defending Sam or his Dad...

[manzanita-crow.livejournal.com]

Hmm, see, in the early seasons I thought Sam was more moral than Dean. I mean Sam was hardly perfect either, so don't get me wrong. But then I'm European and I think our ethics are a little different. Discuss :)

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

I'm European too and I'd agree! LOL I was never really sure why Dean was the Righteous Man. Or John for that matter.

[manzanita-crow.livejournal.com]

John can GTF! If I'm gonna get angry at a fictional character it's John!

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

I promise not to fight. :) also, my bad, that was an intentionally hyperbolic statement. :)

For many years on Show I felt I could rely on Dean to somewhat instinctively do the right thing. I remember when people were rather incensed that he was named as "the righteous man" ... when he's done a lot of questionable things. I guess I felt that it wasn't that his choices weren't questionable -- of course they were -- just that he seemed to make the best decision available to him. It could be argued that selling his soul was a grave mistake -- but was it morally wrong? It's a hard argument.

It was after he got back from Purgatory -- after the experience of things being so "pure" that he starting going off the rails for me.

Also, prior to Purgatory, his disapproval of Sam's actions was a bit more based in compassion in my opinion -- like he honestly wanted to keep Sam safe, from like demon blood and such. Whereas afterward, he seemed more judgy and condemnatory -- like the horrible thing he said when Sam needed to confess. ):

[manzanita-crow.livejournal.com]

Hunters walk a moral tightrope and I don't judge Dean for getting it wrong sometimes. As you say, he did try his best. I'm sure he did a better job than I would have done anyway.

Now, do I agree with the idea of hunting in the first place? Not necessarily. I would want their help if I was in immediate danger from the supernatural, but it's a bit worrying when hunters become judge, jury and executioner... But hey, it makes a great show :D Courtroom dramas aren't nearly as much fun

However, I did think Dean was very judgemental and harsh in S4 and S5. But since he had just spent 40 years in Hell anything short of psychopathic killer was a win in my book :)

I haven't liked Carver's Dean I admit. But that's more to do with Carver's showrunning than Dean per se. Carver's Sam is a bit 'meh' too.

[manzanita-crow.livejournal.com]

So glad we can have an adult conversation about this here :D I wouldn't dare ask elsewhere, even when I was honestly curious about other peoples' opinions

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

absolutely :D and I'm so glad you feel that way. :D

discussion is the spice of life :D

[fanspired]

I truly hope show is as smart as some of its viewers. I'm really enjoying the analysis you and Kalliel have been expounding.

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

Heh. It's not Show's job exactly to be "smart"... more that they have to keep viewers hooked. Tho I actually think Show has been rather astonishingly smart over nine seasons.... they've taken a lot of chances and dropped some hot potatoes, but they've done a better job than they might have. :D

Me and Kalliel and the rest of the Meta Tribe will do the thinky afterwards. :)

[fanspired]

I think for writers like Kripke, Gamble and Edlund, writing is more than a job.

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

true for sure. I've followed Edlund since the early days of the Tick comic book, and Supernatural was a beautiful fit for his talents.

For Kripke and Gamble too, they had a real love of the genre and for the characters.

But for those of us who write meta, we identify symbols and patterns and cultural resonances (for good or ill), whereas the writers are more concentrating on telling a good story that fits into an overall arc. Narrative suspense is very important to them, whereas cultural critics will focus on other things, patterns mostly.

SPN has been an amazing show for me in playing out all the things I'm most interested in: monsters, lore, mythology, heroism, roles of masculinity, social critique, theology -- and it does it all with humor and with compelling human emotions. I love it 100%. :D