Meta, more on SPN vs. Christianity.

[fannishliss]

For some reason, I intend to fic, and then sit down and spew forth Meta. Hope this is interesting to someone other than my tolerant pagan Husband. :P Please don't hesitate to comment whether you agree or disagree.

Supernatural’s Christless Christianity and Pagan People-Eaters

 

missyjack  has done a great job of elucidating how Supernatural critiques a general image of Christianity that permeates the American mythos.  In this meta, I’m going to talk not from a humanist perspective, as she does, but from a theological one – just for the sake of diversity.  (Although my personal religion is Christianity, of the Episcopalian denomination, I do not intend my theology to come across as narrowly Christian.  If it does, mea culpa.)  This is not at all intended as a rebuttal, but merely as a parallel viewpoint with a different starting place.

 

My favorite starting place is my “Christo?” hat.  At Wincon ’08, I traded a “bitch/jerk” t shirt that I won in the charity raffle for a white painter’s cap that says, a la milk ads, “CHRISTO?”  (all caps, but in my mind, it’s all lower case :)  You’ll remember way back in “Phantom Traveller” when Sam tells Dean to test for demons by saying “the name of God” and Dean says “I know” and Sam  says “In Latin’s it’s Christo” and Dean says “Dude I know!”     In my house, many eyebrows were raised.

 

Now, even the most hardcore Christians among us will not claim that Christo is the name of God. Actually, the Hebrew word Messiah, meaning anointed one, is translated into Greek as khristos, and then into Latin as Chrīstus.  So Christ is not the name of God, it’s a title.  The Hebrew and Christian God has only a combination of letters, YHWH, as a name, or refer to God’s cryptic statement from the burning bush, I AM THAT I AM. God is also referred to as Adonai, or the Lord, another title.  Christians follow the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth – Jesus, whose given name would have been Yeshua, meaning, salvation.

 

Linguistics aside, Demons flinch if you say Christo.  Also, they respond to the Latin exorcism developed by the Roman Catholic church and they burn at the touch of holy water, also from Roman Catholicism.    (See wikipedia: “The Rituale Romanum is probably most famous for its rite of Exorcism  made famous by the 1973 horror film The Exorcist. ...The Rituale Romanum used to be the only text the Church would allow for a valid Exorcism....”) They can be trapped in a “devil’s trap” (what we used to call a pentagram in the days before Show)  -- like those from “the Key of Solomon,” a text of Renaissance kabbalistic magic (not explicitly Christian). 

 

Having met angels and demons, archangels, archdemons like Azazel and Lilith, and finally Lucifer himself, there has still been absolutely no mention of Jesus.  When Sam and Dean reached the central Garden of Heaven, they met an Angel named Joshua who still talks to God.  (By coincidence, this episode aired very near Easter, when Christians read the Scripture in which Mary Magdalene mistakes her risen rabbi, Jesus, for a Gardener.  Intriguing!!)

 

So, if there is no Jesus, then why Christo?

 

In my opinion, the Christlessness of Supernatural’s so-called “Christianity” supports Missyjack’s argument – that Supernatural is trying to work, not with the actual religion of Christianity, but with the cultural by-products and the “Christian” mythology that have permeated American culture.  To put it simply, every American who celebrates Christmas (or even Easter!) isn’t a Christian – just that Christianity permeates American culture – and as such, this religiously tinged folklore is fair game for a horror show with a sharp satirical edge.

 

(Unfortunately, because Christianity has been a state religion and a tool of Empire in the recent millennium, many people conflate the crimes perpetrated in the name of the religion with the religion itself.  Few thinking folks would condemn Islam wholesale because of the bad ideas of some acting in its name – but because of Christianity’s dominance, thinking folks will often decry Christianity (or sometimes religious faith in general) with a clear conscience.)

 

I think it’s perfectly fair for Show to work within the Christian mythos, because the Christian mythos is a ripe ground for horror shows  -- as Dante Alighieri well demonstrated all the way back in the 1300s.   Whether or not individual Christians believe in Hell, demons, or Angels, these cultural ideas are powerful and interesting.

 

For Supernatural, a show predicated on the idea of traveling America hunting for monsters, to base a mytharc on the Christian Apocalypse seems perfectly reasonable.  Demonic possession, the Antichrist and the Apocalypse are all big ideas in the American mythos – as is demonstrated by the fact that the Rituale Romanum is mostly known for its rite of exorcism, used in The Exorcist – long held to be the touchstone of horror cinema.

 

Finally, we come around to the idea of the Pagan People Eaters.  Just like many critical viewers, I wonder why it is that whenever Pagan Gods appear on the show, they want to eat people?

 

I think there are a couple of possibilities.  Primarily, eating people will put you on the Winchesters’ Enemies List – while not eating people will tentatively remove you from that list.  Perhaps there are plenty of gods currently residing in America who aren’t eating people – no harm, no foul, no long list of cyclic disappearances to bring the Winchesters down on your godly doorstep with a handy evergreen stake.

 

Interestingly enough, Kali is one goddess who actually carries the name Devourer – and like many goddesses of birth, life, and death – she represents both womb and tomb, and would happily eat you.  What I mean to say is, she represents the Holy Mystery whereby our bodies are devoured by the earth; metaphorically, she eats us.   Most of the other gods depicted on the recent episode aren’t even remotely associated with eating people, much less with killing them in order to eat them.   

 

Another argument is the idea that in America, these gods have fewer followers and are correspondingly weak, necessitating their eating folks instead of living off of worship like in the old days --the Paris Hilton god says something to this effect in Fallen Idols, declaring that American “idol” worship is merely a pale reflection of the devotion she received in her native forest, before it was destroyed (not, incidentally, by Christianity, but by commerce). Madge Carrigan and her partner who dressed up as the Anti-Claus tell a similar story. 

 

Regardless, I found it distressing that Ganesh, a living Divinity for millions of devout Hindus, was painted as a Devourer for no good reason, and easily killed by Lucifer.

 

Vertigo Comics – home to John Constantine, Neil Gaiman’s Sandman, and Mike Carey’s Lucifer – was born out of the storyline of Alan Moore’s Saga of the Swamp Thing. Moore told a fascinating tale of a “shambling, moss-encrusted mockery of a man” who thought he was a scientist named Alec Holland, only to find out that he was an incarnation of the Earth elemental. Alec goes on a pilgrimage throughout Gothic America, defeats some really disgusting witches, and even travels to Hell in his peregrinations, only to discover that his love for his wife, Abigail Arcane, is the key to true transcendence.   The various Vertigo titles and their creators have long been acknowledged as primary influences on Supernatural – and it has always been the contention of John Constantine that Angels are no better than Demons, only more sanctimonious. It was a Vertigo comic that posited Gabriel as Mary’s rapist. How’s that for blasphemy!  :)

 

Vertigo is simply one very influential reflection of an American suspicion of Gods. One of my earliest memories of tv is from watching another forerunner of Supernatural, Kolchak the Night Stalker, going up against a terrifying Native American god in one episode.  The USA was actually founded by men with a well-founded suspicion of religion and of God – most of the founding fathers were “Deists” who believed in a God who set the world running and then absconded. There is a reflection of that God in the God described by Joshua, who will not stop the Apocalypse.

 

As I stated at first, I myself am a practicing Christian.  My belief in redemption tells me that even Lucifer could be redeemed by repentance and faith in a loving God.  I would like nothing more than to see Michael and Lucifer (inspired by our lovely Winchesters) forgive and embrace each other, cleansed of hatred, for the Angels to realize how wrong they’ve been and for all the demons to be purged of their sins and rise to eternal peace.  I certainly don’t believe in a Memorex Heaven, with a bunch of asshole Angels running things in the absence of God – but then my redemptionist narrative isn’t very tense storytelling. :)

 

In all, I’m fine with a humanist story arc for Supernatural: Kripke’s horror show finds redemption in the faith and love two brothers place in each other, and to Hell with God.  Fair enough – but if this is the case, it must be acknowledged that Show is not Christian. And other gods are still going to be portrayed as monsters, especially if Show wants to horrify you with how gorily they eat people.  It’s no less warped storytelling than a “christo?” with no Christ to be invoked.

Comments

[zagzagael.livejournal.com]

This is really very well written, well thought out, and compelling.

I'm intrigued that it's become an issue for some...and I just don't read enough, if any, meta to stay abreast of fandom interp. But the arc is Old Testament cutting straight to the Angel of the Apocalypse. And there are good, solid, creative, symbolic reasons for that and there is also a realistically financial reason for it. ;)

Turning the New Testament into a ghosthunting tv show...just ain't gonna fly.

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

thanks for reading -- my brain goes in a million different directions at once, especially when it's on comparative religion.... so I'm glad you found in interesting!

I wouldn't really want them to try to "do" Christianity... but it does seem to Bother folks that the mytharc is culturally christian.... just trying to elucidate that a little more. :)

Sam is in a Cage for being the Demon Jesus.

[zagzagael.livejournal.com]

Well, at the end of the day, the point is moot. The show is NOT dealing with the New Testament and there is really zero mythic/symbolic interpretation of Christ's life that I can readily call to mind....

It's just a non-issue. But I did like your meta! ;)

I think the "issue" here is that we've moved so far away from symbolic religion in these modern times, that ignorance causes hysteria and misunderstandings. Oh, for a classic education for the unwashed masses.

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

I love how they make up whole passages, because Bobby has a secret longer version of the Revelation. :D

I just like looking things up. I mean, I'm trying to write a little Lisa/Dean backstory, and I had to google up an appropriate monster that might have brought Dean to Cicerto. :)

So yeah, I think it's important to emphasize the ways they deviate from the text -- because a lot of times they quote directly, a lot of times they make it up, a lot of times they are going on cultural myth ("Lucifer" isn't even in the NRSV anymore!), and sometimes they offhandedly refer to a common factual error (like humanity being descended from Cain and Abel, when actually all the survivors of the Flood were descended from Seth). ... I've always been fascinated with myth, religion, and belief -- so I pay attention to this stuff!! :)

[zagzagael.livejournal.com]

I love your brain. *licks* And have really enjoyed your outloud musings, your metas and your fic - so I hope nothing I'm saying is making you feel your words aren't seriously worth writing/reading!

I am endlessly amused by so many things the culture...skews and SPN is at the top of that humourous list. And yet I LOVE LOVE LOVE it desperately!

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

you're very sweet ! smish

[maraceles.livejournal.com]

I really liked this meta. *g*

I agree with how you've differentiated the Christian religion from the Christian mythology. Because yes, if we're doing the religion, then the show gets a ton wrong, not only in its details but in its melding of all the different Christian denominations. But I like how the show does that, because I'm not interested in religious fiction so much as I'm interested in cultural criticism. *g*

The only thing I didn't like about the depiction of the other gods was:

One. The lack of explanation as to why Lucifer was so all-powerful compared to everyone else, though I'm willing to handwave and accept all the good theories out there.

Two. The people eating, though now that I've read your post, I agree that there is no easy way to introduce "bad guys" without them killing people. (Also, it totally jives with the "all supernatural beings are evil" vibe that SPN more often than not goes for.) I wish there was a fast way of communicating 'evil' without the connotation of 'primitive,' but on the other hand, it doesn't really surprise me that the two ideas are conflated in the Western mind. I think every single non-human in the show has been given the 'evil and primitive' angle, even the demons, who seem to be more the depiction of base human pleasures than anything else. The only beings to avoid that treatment so far are the angels, and that looks like a deliberate choice on the part of the writers, going for such a culturally relevant (to the US) belief. While I would be interested in a show that fleshed out the other religions as much as the show fleshed out the angels, their distaste for humanity, and their particular brand of evil, I also understand that such action wouldn't be as hard-hitting to the mainly Christian population that exists in the US. I mean, creepifying the old "angels are watching out for you" phrase gets me a lot harder than the "Ganesh is a devourer" depiction, you know? Just because of my own cultural background.

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

One of my favorite monsters was the Changeling. I loved that monster, because she is a true predator -- higher up on the food chain than us, and really, just trying to feed her kids. :D But, you know, if she and her kids are trying to EAT US, then how sympathetic can we actually be?

I think there's a real linkage between US Patriotism/The Flag and the Angels/Heaven. The story of Sam and Dean's personal heroism is very different from just carrying out their Marching Orders. It's a heroism that insists on soul-searching and free will -- not just doing what the higher-ups insist is "for the greater good." What looks like thoughtfulness on the Angels is really just a veneer of civilization. They may not want to eat you -- but worse, they want to use you up and toss you aside.

Thanks so much for reading! I'm glad you liked it.

[roguebitch.livejournal.com]

I always like it when you reference the Vertigo stuff. Then I feel like I have some ground on which to stand. Although I don't know much about Swamp Thing. ;-)

My impression of Lucifer vs. Other Deities was that he was more powerful than they were because their worshipers had diminished to a great degree, leaving them shadows of their former selves.

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

I love your icon! She is so sweet in that drawing. :)

I need to go back and reread the American Gothic arc in Swamp Thing. It was intense and scary -- very proto supernatural, but actually, much scarier!!

I think that having a good knowledge of Gaiman was pretty much imperative to reacting to that ep the way the writers intended (the two particular credited with the ep Dobb and Lofflin? are writing the current comic, I think)

[roguebitch.livejournal.com]

I think that having a good knowledge of Gaiman was pretty much imperative to reacting to that ep the way the writers intended (the two particular credited with the ep Dobb and Lofflin? are writing the current comic, I think)

I'm picking up my Supernatural comics when I hit my Favorite Local Comic Shop for Free Comic Book Day.

But yes, the Neil Gaiman fanservice is especially rewarding! ;-)

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

HI! I think most people have identified the way the J-C mythos was appropriated in Good Omens... or in movies like the Prophecy, or more famously the Omen or the Exorcist. ... but I guess that the way Show treats Angels is a little slippery and hard for people to get... like, it's not so bad that the Angels are all jerks, except for the ones like Castiel and Gabriel and Anna who are more sympathetic.

My theory about the Angels, the Archangels, Lucifer and their power source is this: the power of Heaven seems to be huge, and the Angels who are not "cut off from Heaven" are tapped into it, wielding a really unimaginable power -- way more than an individual god would wield. If you have the beliefs of 3 billion living believers feeding power into Heaven, then it's not so surprising that Gods like Odin would be overpowered. For Lucifer, he is probably tapped into the power of Hell -- which is channelling not only the belief of everyone who believes in Hell -- but also the belief of all those souls in Hell who are now demons and believe in Him. Might even make him more powerful than the other archangels, since you would think that the archangels are siphoning off belief that is aimed more directly to God. ---- I don't know if this holds water... but in a lot of ways, yes, Satan/Lucifer/the Devil is set up as an anti-God -- way more powerful than an archangel and vying to be as powerful as any other god -- despite his humbles origins as merely an archangel created by and owing fealty to the "One God."

I would be pleased if Kali showed up again. She should be able to kick some butt.

[andreth47.livejournal.com]

I agree completely.

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

Yay! I'm a bad theologian, but stuff like this really interests me. :)

Severus is reading up on the Manichean heresy. :P

[andreth47.livejournal.com]

Hmmm...is that the one that puts Good/God and Evil/Satan on equal terms?

SEVERUS!!!!

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's the one! I also like Gnostic heresy, where the world was created by the Demiurge and all matter is Inherently Evil. :P *raspberry*

I love your icon! I wanna form some kind of society, like the Hufflepuffs And Ravenclaws Defend the Awesomeness of Severus Snape (HARDASS). (I'm a Ravenclaw, but since Dean is a Hufflepuff I wanted to let him join too.)

[andreth47.livejournal.com]

I could never understand why the Gnostics didn't just off themselves. Why live? ;D

Ha! ICWYDT! I love that fic; Dean is totes a Hufflepuff. (I suppose I'm a Slytherclaw, myself, lol, but I'd join HARDASS in a minute.)

I also wanted to say that I absolutely LOVED Kolchak. What a great show! And this post inspired me to buy a run of Hellblazer comics, too. I've never actually read those, just absorbed a lot of fannish info about them, so it's time I go to the source text.

[etoile444.livejournal.com]

I think you got it right. Once and a while there are Christian ideas on the show, but mostly b/c those ideas have permeated popular culture. Americans often don't get that not everyone is Christian, many think everyone is celebrating their holidays etc...

I have never considered Supernatural Christian based. I don't even consider this the Judeo-Christian apocalypse, because I don't think there's ever been a plan for the Second Coming of Christ.

I'm a monotheist. I believe in a Creator god who made everything including lesser gods, angels, humans.

But I let the show do as it will. I'm not the writer and it is just a work of fiction.

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

Right -- this is not the Biblical Endtimes -- because the goal of that prophesy is to reveal God's planned perfection for creation. "A New Heaven and a New Earth, where we will wipe every tear from our eyes."

In my household, we celebrate double holidays, because we also follow the Wheel of the Year. So we just celebrated May Day -- my husband and I were actually married on May Day in a big part Christian, part pagan outdoor wedding, with a prequel maypole!!

So finding the old traditions in the heart of American celebrations is also really interesting to me. I hate to see any gods disrespected -- since even though i am Christian, i believe that when people worship, they are addressing the Divine that has been revealed to them. There does seem to be something very fecund for horror in the idea of worship -- the fear that worship might go awry, that the object of worship might be deeply and dreadfully unworthy. --So I do get where the horror impulse comes from --- and I wish Show would just be a little sensitive when it comes to implying that every pagan god is a devourer -- when it just ain't so.

I think we have met Jesus

[krisreinke.livejournal.com]

IMO? The 'Joshua' we meet in the Garden is Yeshua ben Joseph (because really - Joshua as in 'fought the battle of Jerico? Not such a likely candidate for the #1 spot)
In addition to that consider that:
- Joshua says, of the Garden 'Some people see this as God's Throne Room" - yet we also know that ONLY Joshua gets to hang out there regularly. At the right hand, one might say.
- Joshua, while quite modest in expression none the less can get Zach's attention. Maybe 'Dad' is the one doing "that wrath thing" - but who is going to tell Dad and get him to listen? (Remember, most angels never see God, and only Joshua regularly speaks to him.)
-Joshua speaks to god "one gardener to another". That sounds humble, but listen close. Joshua has some of the same *aspect* as God-Daddy.
Finally
-Joshua is the first and only character to even mention "forgiveness in Heaven" - or indeed any sense of spiritual reward. Everyone else is working on the 'contract' system - which is rather old testament if you get my drift.

My other suspicion is that later we are going to see a lot more in the conversation than we do now. Especially in the 'forgiveness' aspect. (And maybe the resurection aspect - which was also unique in the Joshua conversation.) Because really, is Michael killing his brother Lucifer really a good thing for family to do? Would it make YOUR family happy? I think not.

Re: I think we have met Jesus

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

I think you might be right! We'll see if we get any more of a reveal than they gave with the clues you enumerate... but it is certainly intriguing.

Fellow Vertigo Fan!!! Come to my arms!

[su-darklily.livejournal.com]

I knew someone else in this fandom had to be fans of Vertigo comics, especially Gaiman's Sandman series and the Hellblazer Constantine series. I know that every time I see the 'devil' and the angels in SPN, my perspective had been strongly coloured by the way the angels were portrayed in Constantine, hence total lack of surprise or concern at seeing the Angels behave in less than exemplary ways. Seriously, the arc with Constantine's deal with the devil was mindblowing and I especially enjoyed the characterization of Gabriel, the holier than thou sanctimonious hypocrite and how easily his Aryan perfection crumbled when 'tempted' into falling.

And I think you totally nailed the 'lack of Christ' in SPN's depiction of Judeo-Christianity.

There's been a lot of discussion regarding the absence of God, but to me the striking absence in this show has really been Jesus Christ, the son of God. Maybe because in SPN, Dean's been slated to take on the role of the Messiah, who will redeem the world through his suffering - like the crucifixion = time in hell etc. (40 days vs 4 months aka 40 years) The entirety of Season 5 can be seen as Dean's garden of Gethsemane as he struggles with the responsibilities of a role he neither asked for nor wanted (ie. 'get this cup away from me) and so on.

Basically, SPN has deliberately set out to invoke and evoke the mysteries of Christianity (and other religion) without engaging in the core principalities of any religion. It's no wonder that there are so many strong and diverse reactions ranging from insult to wonder as the viewers are left to struggle to establish their own interpretation of the SPN canon belief structure based only on the capricious amalgamation of disparate elements. The criticisms which rose so quickly and loudly in the wake of 5.19 had this in common; a wish that the writers of the show demonstrated the level of world building that is enjoyed in such texts as Gaiman's Sandman (since Kripke is a self-professed fan of this series, it's hard to understand why this was not required reading for the writers).

Finally, regarding the flesh-eating characteristics of the Pagan Gods. I've always been fascinated by this in SPN because at the core of every religion (including Christianity) is the link between life and death and renewal of life through the consumption of human flesh. From the really gross practice of the Incan Gods, who I also wished had been included in 5.19 or elsewhere in SPN - sometime I get the feeling that South America doesn't even exist in the show and yet it's just as easy to get to by car as Canada. To the hyperbolic reenactment symbolized by the Catholic practice of holy communion, religion in its basic had always been about blood and flesh eating.

It's just that SPN has hinted that the eating of the human flesh was a critical component in 'feeding' the Gods (specifically 3.08) and I can't help wondering exactly how and this is the point, whether the writers had actually spent some time on developing this concept any further.

PS. OT but if you haven't yet read Vertigo's Fable series, you absolutely MUST MUST MUST. I just got into it last few months and I'm in LOVE! I know that a discerning reader like you will love it!

Re: Fellow Vertigo Fan!!! Come to my arms!

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

I followed Sandman avidly, and have a complete collection of Hellblazer, though I must admit I haven't read them all for a while now!! (hides face)

I think you make a good point about how the Christian idea is of Eating God's Flesh rather than the other way round. I kind of doubt they'll be able to make anything of that!! but I wish they had allowed the gods convention to stay neutral rather than making them a threat by having them be people eaters. it didn't make a ton of sense.

I also totally get the parallels between Dean and the Suffering Servant... especially his descent into hell and resurrection from the dead. will he sit at the right hand of God? that would be astonishing!! I think though that Dean's ultimate humanity -- and Sam's -- are the key to their heroism.
:)

Re: Fellow Vertigo Fan!!! Come to my arms!

[su-darklily.livejournal.com]

omg! did u know that I also have the complete collection of Hellblazer which I've put off catching up with? lol.

But I do promise myself that I am going to go back and slough through Hellblazer - one of the reasons for putting it off is that it isn't exactly a light read. Which reminds me, do you remember the story about fly demon which was locked into Constantine's old friend? It was at the beginning of the series and gave me nightmares when I first read it. One of the best horror I've ever read I thought, especially in the way the story concluded. That and the Dangerous Habits arc which was how I got into Hellblazer in the first place. Absolutely mind-blowing audacity by Garth Ennis to have Satan turning up as tricked up by Christ! Not to mention the whole 'joke' with the holy water doctored beer. Everytime I see Bobby and the boys playing with holy water (especially laced in alcohol), it always makes me think of that story.

As for Dean, I always suspected that SPN has pretty much set him up as the 'son' of God' and will have to do a meta one day and see just how closely I can track the paralleling.

By the way, lovely catch phrase re their 'humanity' as 'the key to their heroism'. And yep, I think that too - that in the end, the battle with Lucifer and Michael will be resolved by taking the two combatants off Earth, rather than by letting them free to go at each other.

[fresne.livejournal.com]

Excellent essay.
I very much like the way you place Supernatural within the flow of it's cultural context. Vertigo, Jesus free Christo, people eating pagans and all.

It is unfortunate that overall redemption would be well nigh impossible within the context of the show. Although, the first 3 Prophesy movies did a fairly good stab at it, and the very little know - if excellent - "Requiem for the Devil" is more of a dark romance. Perhaps in meta that becomes fanfic.

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

thanks for your comment! I'm glad you liked it.

Yeah, show is a bit tragic for redemption to really work. The plan right now seems to be to try to throw Lucifer back into the Pit.... but I think a redemptive storyline where he and Michael and God reconcile would better reflect the Winchesters' redemptive narrative. ---- yet again I am Marge Simpson and Itchy and Scratchy are having a very nice tea party! :P

J2 are all hearts when they read my script ideas. HUGS ALL AROUND. FADE TO BLACK!!