critique me ?

[fannishliss]

This may seem an odd request, but if anyone feels like telling me what was off about my last piece, the Castiel is his own God drabble, I'd love to hear criticisms!

boring?
purple?
too paradoxy?
opaque?

sincerely, Liss
(don't worry, I have a very thick skin!)

Comments

[datenshiblue.livejournal.com]

Any particular reason why you're asking, like do you feel like there's something off about it?

I got what you were going for, but it's possible some readers might miss that (as in, the paradox that Cas brought *himself* back those two times by using his godlike power to affect something in the past).

The only other thing I can think off isn't a critique of your idea, or your writing, just a personal take on canon - I don't think Castiel *is* God at this point, that's a red herring. But it doesn't mean the idea isn't fair game for writing playtime. :)

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

Well... I am very critical of my own writing so I can always see the bits that are clunky in my own ear... I am also captivated by "purple" so I can't always tell if I've gone too far!

in this particular instance, I thought maybe the paradox wasn't obvious enough, or maybe was too obvious? I found it quite fun, but the Lisa-Ben drabble got quite a lot more feedback -- I guess because of the emotional hit. Perhaps the Castiel one is dry?

I also agree that Castiel is mistaken about Being God... but I thought it would deliver a big emotional hit to him to realize that "God" didn't ever bring him back, when that was so important to his motivation and determination to Keep Going in s5 and at least partly in s6. ... Maybe the focus of the drabble is in the wrong place, like, focused on the mechanics rather than the gut significance? .... Castiel is so out of his own head right now that perhaps I was misled in terms of pov.

... edit : I think I have hit on a much better platform for restaging the concept. Yay!

[datenshiblue.livejournal.com]

I found it quite fun, but the Lisa/Ben drabble got quite a lot more feedback -- I guess because of the emotional hit. Perhaps the Castiel one is dry?

Ahhh, I understand completely. :)

I think in general, Cas-as-God is a sore point for a lot of people (you mentioned your friend in a comment below, and I have one like that also, I spent some time trying to nudge her towards the idea that this will probably be resolved pretty quickly, I personally don't think Cas is going to be the season 7 big bad, but she's having none of it).

The fact that it's a sore point may be affecting who reads and who responds. You said some very wise words to me only a couple of days ago: but certainly, there are places where no matter how well you write the story, you'll not get as big an audience. I think the Cas/God issues is not one that's embraced by a chunk of the fandom right now, because they feel insulted and hurt by it (rationally or otherwise). There's also another portion who are kind of sick of Castiel and angels period and only want to read Sam-n-Dean, or Dean-Lisa, in other words, Winchester related stuff.

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

hee hee, now I am made to take my own advice #*_*# :)

I am a huge omnivore when it comes to reading -- my selectivity is only limited by how much time is available.

I hadn't quite realized how much people were offended by the idea of Cas as God -- I mean, I knew people were, but I hadn't fully realized it.

I plan on taking the story to a much safer place. I think it will help! and bonus, it will be a story instead of a drabble. Very interesting to me how drabbles activate my poet side, and stories are another matter. :)

[digitalwave]

Wow! Talk about wheels within wheels. :)

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

THE CRAZY SET OF COGS THAT IS MY BRAIN. THIS IS WHAT IT'S LIKE ALL THE TIME IN HERE. :P

[themonkeytwin.livejournal.com]

Huh ... see, I read this much less straight-forwardly, because I too don't believe that Cas IS God. The key undercurrent was that God sees all things – and you describe the panoply of what Cas sees – but God also sees Himself. Whereas, at least in your fic, I felt like Cas sees what happened to him, but is scarily lacking in self-awareness, even though he can see everything else. The one thing Cas can't see is himself. Which makes him emphatically NOT God. Which is a paradox of sorts.

Granted, I read that into your fic, because I didn't realise you (rather than just Cas) were proposing it as a explanation for the past. But that undercurrent was what gave it its tension, to me. Does that help?

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure! But I appreciate your trying! :D

edit: yes, i think it DID help, because now I have a new idea for staging the concept. cheers!!

I totally agree that Castiel is currently SCARILY un self aware.
o_O
That's like the whole point with him. One of my flisters is so enraged by what happened to poor Cas in the last two minutes that I'm afraid to even try and comfort her. She is having a MEATHOOKS! summer, whereas I am over in Doctor Who territories, drinking banana dacquiris :D ... I have faith that our beloved Castiel will be restored, albeit a sadder, wiser Cas. :(

In the meantime, I think my "Cas restored himself" Paradox will need a totally different fic to work itself out.

[themonkeytwin.livejournal.com]

I'm glad it helped :)

It's interesting; watching the Cas self-awareness and power addiction arc was like tracking S4 Sam, except this time only in snatches. Which is one of the reasons why I personally do hope they go the other direction with him and lead him much further down the darkside path than they could with Sam, because I've already seen that story. But I know that's going to upset a great many people.

Which raises a question (since I wasn't as involved in fandom at that time): do you feel like the Cas!girls reaction to his darkside arc is significantly different to the Sam!girls to his?

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

Your helpful comments have revealed a lot to me, thanks!

I think the dark!Sam, Dark!cas parallel is very apt. Whereas in Sammyland, we have learned to embrace Evil!Sam (there was a nommy looking challenge for Evil!Sam stories just yesterday), I don't see the same for Castiel. And there are also Still plenty of Samgirls who are insulted that Sammy has an evil bone.... or vice versa, a few Dean girls who think that Sammy's struggle with his darkside puts Dean in the shade somehow.

I think Casgirls feel that Castiel has suffered not just a darkside, but a fullon character assassination. I don't agree, because I do feel we're in the middle of that story still. I found Castiel's first person ep to be incredibly moving and effective within the s6 arc, myself. I can take a summer of God!Cas and I fully expect it to resolve within the first ep or so of s7 (remember MEATHOOKS and how Dean pushed his way out of the ground in the first scene of s4, which was absolutely brilliant). (I mean, going back all the way to the end of s1, there was MACKTRUCK!, and sure enough, that was all resolved in 2.1).

I think Cas girls feel suddenly shoved outside of Castiel's inner monologue -- because he himself is currently so unaware of what is going on with him. He's assumed this megalomaniacal stance, whereas the real Castiel has always been self-assured but at the same time, with an appropriate humility and sense of himself.

With evil!Sam, we've only seen that side of Sam when it was spurred on by demon blood -- which yeah, the Samgirls really railed against at the time.

btw, I will get back to your BSG question sometime soon! :)

[themonkeytwin.livejournal.com]

With evil!Sam, we've only seen that side of Sam when it was spurred on by demon blood -- which yeah, the Samgirls really railed against at the time.

That makes sense. Arguably we saw the exact same journey with Cas, with Crowley in Ruby's role and souls for demon blood. Except that we were much more thoroughly prepared for the possibility (of Sam), as it had been seeded in through the entire series as the main fear of what could potentially happen. Whereas with Cas, it really seemed to come out of nowhere because we barely saw any of his journey and the whole thing had to be explained in one ep in order to set up the finale. And if Samgirls reacted badly to something that was foreshadowed so much for three or four years, then I can see why Casgirls are especially shocked and upset by it, character assassination and etc.

Related to that, you could also argue that the reason Cas ultimately fell harder than Sam was because he had no Dean (or Dean-figure) impeding his downward journey, to reflect the nature and magnitude of what he was doing, or to give him a way back once he does realise. But all season it was made a point of that Dean was not treating Cas like a brother (or at least not how he treated Sam), and if he'd been less oblivious and demanding, they might have found out and been able to do something a lot sooner. Damnit, why does everyone else's successes and failures always come down to Dean's successes and failures?

(That might have been a slight overreaction.)

btw, I will get back to your BSG question sometime soon! :)

Ooh! :)

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

"Damnit, why does everyone else's successes and failures always come down to Dean's successes and failures?" -- I have a tag that claims that Dean is everyone's moral compass. :P

Imho, Castiel legitimately wanted, like Bobby, for Dean to enjoy his new chance at happiness undisturbed. Cas couldn't see that Dean needs to be needed. Dean for his part, called on Cas but all Cas would say is that there was a war on. Cas never hinted at a need for guidance. Seeing that Dean's whole maturation process in s5 was to learn to let Sam make his own decisions, I don't think he can be faulted for believing that Cas could be trusted to make his own decisions.... meanwhile, Dean had wrong!Sam to deal with, hinky Campbells, being made a vampire, fouling up his connection to Lisa, etc.

Dean's instinct told him that Castiel had to have a good excuse. Point of fact, Castiel did have a good excuse. Like Sam, Castiel was unable to see any ways around making use of the strongest weapon available to him -- and now he suffers the consequences. :(

I think the lesson is to keep your Dean close, and keep your distracted Dean even closer. :P

[themonkeytwin.livejournal.com]

I agree, and I don't blame any of them for not doing "better". But I still think that now that the writers have their very own cautionary tale for how it COULD have gone for Sam, if he hadn't had Dean, they're not going to let it go so quickly as 7.01. That's my hunch, but then, I've been spectacularly off at trying to understand what they were aiming for in S6, so.

I think the lesson is to keep your Dean close, and keep your distracted Dean even closer.

I can do that! :)

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

ME TOO. now i am picturing keeping my Dean close. WHAT A HARDSHIP.

i am totes up for conversation about the point of s6. Much thinky is mine!

[themonkeytwin.livejournal.com]

I FEEL YOUR PAIN. DEAN IS SUCH A NUISANCE.

I would LOVE a conversation about the point of s6. I've worked through a lot of what bothered me about it from a storytelling standpoint (I worked through it a LOT, if you want to read it, although I totally don't blame you if you don't!) and celebrated the season over at bitterlimetwist's. So now I'm all ready to dig down and figure this puppy out. Gimme your thinky!

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

I've been meaning to put some thought into this but got distracted by a shiny drawing. (I split myself into WAAAAY too many pieces sometimes. So you get Emo!Quickreaver tonight. *teehee!*)

Anywho, you posed the question "Why did my Lisa-Ben drabble get more response than this one?" You felt the Cas ficlet was 'off'. I'll tell you, being an artist, you can never predict which painting will catch the public's interest and make it spread o'er the internet like a brushfire. Who'd have thought 'Twilight' or 'Harry Potter' would become the smash hits that they have? Certainly not me, having tried to read both.

Here's my theory. If you luckily (or skillfully!) tap into some easy-to-grasp universal truth and give it a slight twist, make it plainly but uniquely accessible, you will get more feedback than when you challenge your reader.

Toying with the ideas of a god and self-scrutiny and the miracle of being is waaaay too existential for a lot of folks. But the mother-son thing? That's instantly relevant and easy to get your brain around.

I also think the Cas piece came off a bit more academic. I have that issue with my creative stuff, too. Brainy language, an almost austere vibe, a bit restrained. (You're a better writer than I am but I experience the same thing with my visual art as well.) Now, this is neither good nor bad. It just...is. Don't 'dumb down' for your audience, hell no, but it might be interesting to combine that intellect with earthy, risky emotions. Dare to cross the line. Tap into serious rage or joy or sex or violence or loneliness or humanity or...you get the picture. Set it up, build momentum, go for the money shot.

If it doesn't work, throw it out! But GO THERE. Don't be afraid of looking silly because you won't. (Now, I need to take my own advice!)

Also, monkeytwin had some really great points about Cas!fans getting taken by surprise and then handed the news Misha won't be a regular in Season Seven. Lotsa angst there. I have a feeling the writers will need to set the groundwork for this New World under the New God for a few eps then bring back Castiel when we're not exactly expecting it. I suspect it'll be powerful storytelling. Or at least I hope so!

Hope this has helped! I haven't read all your past fic so I might be talking out my ass. If so, forgive a poor peon! I welcome your own observations whenever you feel like throwing 'em my way. I, too, have tough, tough, sometimes scaly, hide!

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

You give great advice -- thanks! and I even have an idea about how to heed it! :)

Do you read Tarot? In my teens I used to pull Swords ALL THE DAMN TIME. I'd hardly ever see cups or wands (pentacles? never).

Yeah, so there will definitely come another take on the Cas tale, told much more so from the emo side. :D and hopefully, even console the Cas fans who are floundering in shock and dismay. (Dude, I totally saw it coming, tho, and it was nowhere NEAR as bad as I feared.)

You know what? I'm gonna paste your comments onto my desktop. You give great advice!! :D I appreciate the time you've taken. mwah!

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

Awesome! Can't wait to see what evolves. Like I said, now I have to apply it for my OWN bad self. (I haven't read Tarot in yeeeeears. Might be interesting to see what I'd pull, these days...hmmm!)